Posts by Cold Steel

16

Interesting Observation by a Coworker

by breakfast of champions in

over the past couple years, i've confided my whole "apostate experience" to one of my coworkers, everything from 607 and 1914, to disfellowshipping and being raised with the constant fear my worldly family would die in armageddon.

so he knows the whole witness thing.. anyway, he tells me this experience he had on tuesday:.

you wouldn't believe this, boc.

Cold Steel

My wife HATES religion...all religion and religious discussions. One time we were sitting at a restaurant and these two men were seated next to us speaking in a foreign language. My wife, who speaks the language, listened for awhile and told me that one of the men was a Jehovah's Witness and the other wasn't. The JW was complaining that there were no eligible women at his Kingdom Hall and his friend was trying to set him up with a friend of his, also not a JW. The friend was telling him how "hot" she was and the JW was non-commital and resisting. Then his friend said that if God wasn't going to send him a nice JW gal, then he was justified in dating someone outside of his religion. The interesting thing is the language was Farsi (Persian for you Bethelites), and the woman the guy was trying to fix his friend up with was a blonde.

12

What Does It Take to Be Disfellowshiped For Apostasy?

by Cold Steel in

if one meets privately with an elder and brings up some religious concerns havin to do with doctrine, does the person risk being disfellowshiped?

does attitude have anything to do with it?

or persistance?

Cold Steel

If one meets privately with an elder and brings up some religious concerns havin to do with doctrine, does the person risk being disfellowshiped? Does attitude have anything to do with it? Or persistance? If a person is respectful when he approaches an elder or overseer, is it handled as an infraction or does the congregation authority answer with kindness and patience? At what point does the smile vanish and the lips get a bit tight? At what point is administrative action deemed necessary?

Has anyone here approached someone in authority expecting a compassionate answer and been met with threats instead? And if so, what usually happens when you take it to the next level? Also, I imagine if you backed off, things would be okay, but is there a point of no return where you've essentially sealed your own fate? Is a swift apology good enough to get one out of trouble for questioning something?

I also understand superstition is rife at Kingdom Halls. Can you imagine how much fun someone like Derren Brown could have in just one Sunday meeting?

3

What About the Resurrection? The JUST and the UNJUST?

by Cold Steel in

the scriptures speak about the resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

all will be resurrected.

paul teaches that although all will be resurrected, not all will be resurrected to the same glory.

Cold Steel

Badfish: The resurrection spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15 is a spiritual resurrection - not fleshly. It is talking about being raised as a spirit, not into a human body of flesh. That's why it says "It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one." So they wouldn't be resurrected into mortal fleshly human bodies that can die a physical death again. But if you die as a spirit, you must be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which means the Second Death (Revelation 20:14-15).

I agree that it’s a spiritual resurrection, but what exactly is that? Does it mean that people are resurrected as spirits? The scripture doesn’t say that. When Jesus appeared to the apostles, they at first thought he’d been resurrected as a spirit. But he was quick to explain to them that this was not the case. “Why do fears arise in your hearts,” he asked. “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and hones as ye see me have.”

To emphasize his point, Jesus suddenly asked, “Have ye any meat?” And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and honey comb, and Jesus ate it before them. Is it possible that Jesus was hungry after three days in the tomb? That seems rather unlikely; instead, it appeared to be a teaching device.

Paul later writes, “ Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be [in the resurrection]: but we know that, when [Christ] shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. ”

In short, according to the scriptures, our resurrection will be like Christ’s; yet it will be a spiritual resurrection. So knowing it also will be a physical resurrection, how can it be both physical and spiritual? And how did Jesus go through the walls and ceilings of the building? The Jehovah's Witnesses have used that as evidence that Jesus was indeed a spirit. How else could he have passed through solid walls unless he was a spirit? That argument today is completely specious as it was when it was conceived. What we know today of quantum physics, wormholes, interdimensional travel, particles that can coexist in different dimensions and much more. Jesus, having all power and authority from the Father, could easily go through walls and ceilings.

So what is spiritual resurrection? Again, a man, having separated from the flesh through death, becomes a spirit...a being that is limited in what it can do and experience. Then, in the resurrection, that spirit is reunited with the flesh and becomes greatly empowered. But instead of having a corruptible body of flesh and blood, we become perfected beings of immortal flesh, bone and spirit. That is why Jesus said, “A spirit hath not flesh and bone as ye see I have.” Thus we see that Jesus was perfect in his being. He was not a spirit as he was previously when he was Yahweh in the generations before his birth. He was now in the “express image” of his Father and like him in every way.

The term “spiritual resurrection” was an almost irreconcilable issue with the early church fathers. Tertullian acknowledged Christ’s physical body, but was puzzled by the reference to a spiritual resurrection. It was, perhaps, the Spirit of God that animated Christ’s physical body. Whereas they saw the complexities in the issue, the Jehovah's Witnesses rushed in and immediately jumped to the dubious conclusion that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, manufactured a physical body to deceive the apostles into thinking he wasn’t a spirit, then spent forty days with them as a physical being.

In fact, though, Jesus became a dual nature, being a perfected man of flesh and bone, and spirit. Thus, he would remain forever. That’s why his body was missing from the tomb. It had been restored to him in a glorified condition. And, we’re told, our resurrection can be like Christ’s.

17

Does God's word apply to God?

by mauiboy in

the tv news about syria is truly disgusting, and it is only the tip of a much bigger situation that has been going on for milleniums.

:"mans inhumanity to man".

but i can't get the scripture at james 4:17 out of my mind.

Cold Steel

Ah, Nathan, how do you know God doesn't have feet? Jesus had feet, and is said to be in the "express image" of the Father. Also, that man is in the image of God. The big question is, why would God have, or need, feet, hands, arms, hands, eyes and so forth?

All those who have purported to have seen God say He is, in form, like a man.

Fascinating, eh?

17

Does God's word apply to God?

by mauiboy in

the tv news about syria is truly disgusting, and it is only the tip of a much bigger situation that has been going on for milleniums.

:"mans inhumanity to man".

but i can't get the scripture at james 4:17 out of my mind.

Cold Steel

Mauiboy: “Therefore, if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.” Unless Jehovah God has a second set of rules for us and him, how can this not be corrected by Him? Or is he letting his own word condemn him?

Actually, you’re quite correct. God and man are governed by different sets of laws. Man is under divine obligation to do good and right. God also does what is good and right, but He has an obligation to allow man his free agency, with only limited interference from Him.

When the wicked slay the wicked, God is under no obligation to prevent it. But when man fails to prevent it, the sin lies at his door. The purpose of this life is for man to be tried and tested. Nothing that happens, no matter how horrible, is of any lasting hurt...only what we do to ourselves. When people perish, whether it’s in the waves of the sea, or whether they fall from the air or are killed by maniacal tyrants or filthy degenerates, there are no lives that blink out of existence, even for a fraction of a second. Both people and animals simply change environments. That’s why the Lord said to not fear those who have the power to kill, but rather, him who can destroy both body and soul. In some situations, God has preserved the lives of his servants and others. In other situations, He allows atrocities to be committed so as to allow the free agency of mortals to play out to their condemnation. For, as the scriptures state, a murderer hath not eternal life abiding in him.

So the Lord, to an extent, must let things play out. If He prevented our mistakes and sins, and stopped our wars and atrocities, He would actually be violating His own edicts. Noah and his family came through the great flood, but within three generations, his offspring had refused to spread out over the face of the land and, under the leadership of his great grandson, Nimrod, his descendants had slipped back into the degradation of the pre-flood conditions. Thus, instead of destroying them, the Lord confounded their languages.

So man, for better or for worse, is the steward of this world under the protecting hand of God. If man becomes the product of greed and corruption and seeks for power and gain, he listens to the voice of Satan and his angels. But his is the choice between good and evil. Atheism wasn’t an issue with Nimrod and the other offspring of Noah. The knew God lived and bitterly resented His destruction of their fathers through the flood. His tower was his symbol of rebellion and resentment.

Finally, God allows Satan to tempt man and to foster rebellion. The constant presence of evil and good are necessary so that man can make a choice. For God to abrogate that choice and nullify man’s free agency would destroy His entire plan.

14

The Fullfillment of Prophecy about the last days in The 1st Centruy

by cassuk11 in

the last days were about the destruction of jerusalem and the temple in the 1st centruy.

the messiah was talking to those who asked the question , he replied tot hem and did not lie or mislead.he told them not us that soem would still be alive when he returned.

they fully expected it andwere waiting.he did not lie .he cmae back for his chosen ones and took them back where they serve in the kingdom .most of the apocolyptic language used were symbolic metephors randt akenform the old testamant.

Cold Steel

The only problem is that we can't fully trust the ancient manuscripts we have since none are original. It’s entirely likely that some later scribe manipulated the Savior’s words in the hopes that the Second Coming would be in his day or, at the least, earlier.

If one accepts these prophecies, then it’s clear these prophesies failed, right? Zechariah 12-14 describes the events, not of the Roman assault, but of a future assault during which God would bolster Israel, and the Messiah would rescue the Jews in the day of their redemption. According to prophecy, a number of things had to happen. First, the Jews would be scattered throughout the nations of the earth. Then, wolves in lambs’ clothing would enter the church, not sparing the flock. This would be followed by a “falling away” or mass apostasy. Centuries passed, the keys of the kingdom, or administerial authority, would pass away. The coming of Elijah, who would “restore all things,” was destined to occur, and then the gathering of Judah spoken about in Isaiah 11 would come to pass, followed by the building of the third temple (See Rev. 14). Once established, a great power from the north would come down on the holy city and the Lord would raise up two prophets. Three and a half years later, the Lord comes in his glory and rescues the remnant Jews and destroys Judah’s enemies, leaving only a sixth of the enemy intact.

At that point he descends upon the Mount of Olives, and an earthquake tears a rift into the mount, splitting it asunder. The remnant of the Jews flee into the valley and the Messiah reveals himself, converting the Jewish state in a single day. That’s a lot to happen in one’s lifetime; that’s why I dismiss any prophecies that seem to push the event in the Lord’s generation.

36

The Great Tribulation Was in the 1st Century and WIll Never Occur Agian

by cassuk11 in

the messiah told the discipels they would live through it, they would ,see it, they would experience it and it would never occur again..

Cold Steel

Cassuk11: I don’t believe in the preterist view. I just listened to what Messiah said. The fact that it lines up with some school of thought is irrelevant. He plainly said to the disciples they would not finish going through all the cities of Israel before the son of man comes in his Kingdom. Also he told the high priest he would see the son of man coming on the clouds. Also some of those standing right in front of him would still be alive when he returned.. SO as it stands we either believe what the Messiah said or we don’t. The prophecies were about the destruction of Jerusalem and more importantly the temple.

The only problem is that we can't fully trust the ancient manuscripts we have since none are original. It’s entirely likely that some later scribe manipulated the Savior’s words in the hopes that the Second Coming would be in his day or, at the least, earlier.

If one accepts these prophecies, then it’s clear these prophesies failed, right? Zechariah 12-14 describes the events, not of the Roman assault, but of a future assault during which God would bolster Israel, and the Messiah would rescue the Jews in the day of their redemption. According to prophecy, a number of things had to happen. First, the Jews would be scattered throughout the nations of the earth. Then, wolves in lambs’ clothing would enter the church, not sparing the flock. This would be followed by a “falling away” or mass apostasy. Centuries passed, the keys of the kingdom, or administerial authority, would pass away. The coming of Elijah, who would “restore all things,” was destined to occur, and then the gathering of Judah spoken about in Isaiah 11 would come to pass, followed by the building of the third temple (See Rev. 14). Once established, a great power from the north would come down on the holy city and the Lord would raise up two prophets. Three and a half years later, the Lord comes in his glory and rescues the remnant Jews and destroys Judah’s enemies, leaving only a sixth of the enemy intact.

At that point he descends upon the Mount of Olives, and an earthquake tears a rift into the mount, splitting it asunder. The remnant of the Jews flee into the valley and the Messiah reveals himself, converting the Jewish state in a single day. That’s a lot to happen in one’s lifetime; that’s why I dismiss any prophecies that seem to push the event in the Lord’s generation.

At the end of our fleshly life span we will be changed in the blink of an eye into the Kingdom the which has been here for 2,000 years it is within. It cannot be seen or touched. But those who want to seek it will find it. Eventually all people will enter in the gates of the New Jerusalem are never shut. It is symbolic metaphor language to describe the spiritual state you will be in for eternity.

Yeah...the blinking of the eye transformation occurs during the Millennium when one reaches the age of man, which is about a hundred years old. At that point, he will change from mortality to immortality in the twinkling of an eye. The resurrection for those who are dead will begin to happen at the Lord’s coming at that will be the resurrection of the just. The resurrection of the unjust comes at the end of the Millennium.

4

JW vs Christianity Debate

by zound in

haven't watched it all yet, but thought some may be interested.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkjbsxm6_ue.

Cold Steel

James White is a tough guy to out-debate. He could probably lose a written debate, but he has a near-photographic memory of the scriptures and can quote them extensively without once looking at a note. Substance-wise, he's more flash than anything. If you're facing someone who's convinced that the Bible is the complete, inerrent word of God and that all other sources are superfluous, you can just keep getting shouted down.

In debates, you have to form some basis of agreement before you can find a basis to disagree. In debates with atheists, it does little good to quote scripture.

Beating up JWs doctrinally, theologically or from an eschatological standpoint isn't very tough. Almost anyone who knows anything about the Society, history and the scriptures can make mincemeat out of them. (It's like beating up Shirley Temple, but more satisfying.) And Bethel brings much of it on their own heads by their secular snobbery, sense of injustice and blatant ignorance. The fact that it discourages higher education also keeps the membership nice and dumbed down.

3

What About the Resurrection? The JUST and the UNJUST?

by Cold Steel in

the scriptures speak about the resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

all will be resurrected.

paul teaches that although all will be resurrected, not all will be resurrected to the same glory.

Cold Steel

The scriptures speak about the resurrection of both the just and the unjust. All will be resurrected. Paul teaches that although all will be resurrected, not all will be resurrected to the same glory. Even as there are differences in heavenly and earthly glories, variances exist throughout both. “So also,” he said, “is the resurrection of the dead.” (See 1 Corinthians 15)

But according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, there will be only two resurrections. One will be the resurrection of the just (“just” Jehovah’s Witnesses). The other will be the unjust. But how does that work? As I understand it, and please correct me if I’m wrong, all people who have died in the past will be resurrected and then given a choice regarding whether they support or oppose Jehovah in his great war against Satan. Those who go with Jehovah are saved and those who don’t...well, they will be destroyed.

So what about those who are destroyed in Armageddon? In every article it seems that the wicked end up dead...permanently. So are those destroyed in Armageddon resurrected or not? Paul wrote, “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order....”

Jehovah's Witnesses don’t seem to make any provisions for those killed at Armageddon. Why? It also doesn’t make sense that God would bring the unrighteous back, then destroy them. Doesn’t that make Christ’s suffering and death ineffectual? At least for some...or most?

“All flesh is not the same flesh,” Paul writes, “but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.”

Why, if only the righteous are resurrected (for good), would there be so many different degrees? Paul also declares, concerning the body, “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.”

Keeping in mind that a “natural” body is mortal and a “spiritual” body is a resurrected physical body (animated by spirit), we have to determine why there should be many different types of resurrections if Jehovah is going to destroy all but the faithful.

Speaking of Jehovah’s enemies, a Watchtower writer gets a bit carried away. “If, as it were, they should go into the mountainous region of Bashan and onto its high peaks, from there the inescapable Jehovah God will bring them down and back to punishment. If, even in atomic-powered submarines, they should try to hide themselves in the depths of the sea, the unavoidable Jehovah God will bring them back. To what? To face slaughter, that their lifeblood might be poured out.” (Watchtower, November 1, 1967) I have this image in my mind of a giant stern-faced bearded man plucking a nuclear Seawolf-class submarine from the sea, shaking it a few times and smashing it against an asphalt street in a ruined U.S. city.

Is Jehovah-God is going to then resurrect those poor sailors and destroy them again? What sense does that make and, again, what does it mean about the efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice? How do the Jehovah's Witnesses explain this?

293

AGM 5 OCTOBER 2013 (UNOFFICIAL RUMORS)

by WatchTower87 in

- 23 day to go .. annual meeting unofficial rumors.

- new bible.

- new nwt (revision).

Cold Steel

The Faithful and Discreet Slave will shock members by announcing it's support of homosapien marriages.

It also will declare a change of its designation. It will now be called The Faithful and Discreet Leaders of Everyone Else.

It also will announce that Armageddon may have already happened...invisibly.